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Thread: Pressurized oil tank & Burner build - Zapins

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Zapins View Post
    Hmmm... I like those mods JunkYard. Heating pad and spinner. I think I'll add them to the tank in the future, maybe next time I'm back home (march/april). For now I'm just using diesel so it won't clog. Can you post pics of your spinner and heating pads? Maybe the brand/specific name of it? I'd love to price everything out ahead of time if possible.

    Did you add a vent for when you fill the tank? I noticed my tank bubbling up with air as I was filling it. Not a deal breaker but it slowed down the filling process a bit. Petee I'll have to have a think about how to do the vent.

    I think my tank can probably fit about 5-6 gallons of fuel which might last me 2-3 hours under realistic conditions. Maybe longer if I really figure out the fuel/air ratio thing.

    The tank seems to work well but the oil burner isn't working well. I'll post a new thread about it and see what you guys think. Really driving me nuts that I can't just use it to melt and instead there are problems after problems. When I'm done with it I'll make a proper build thread with lots of photos and details to hopefully save someone else the troubles I've had over the last 3 years.

    ***Edit***

    Well here is the oil burner video, figure I'll just post it here and see what you guys think instead of making a new thread.

    I think I might not have a powerful enough blower. It puts out 105 cfm which is fine for propane but I don't think its working enough for oil. Or maybe the oil needs to be atomized more than it currently is. I have it so it just streams out in a jet/stream. As if it was coming out of a syringe under pressure.

    I tried it at 2.5 psi, and 17 psi. Both kept a stable flame but the walls of the furnace didn't start glowing like it does with propane. I don't know if this is just how oil burners work or if it isn't getting hot enough? What do you guys think? I get the feeling that the fuel is burning too high up in the furnace instead of near the bottom. Not sure. Let me know.


    ++++Fixed video link, 3D
    Zapins,
    Here is a link to the spinner filter assembly

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/prm-1211/overview/

    here is the tractor supply version

    http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pro...ci-3-4-to-1-in
    http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pro...r?cm_vc=-10005

    Here is the link to the wolverine heaters. They are sized according to the size of your tank/vehicle. If you have any questions as to the correct size I would recommend calling and speaking with their customer rep. They were very helpful when I originally purchased mine.

    https://www.wolverineheater.com/default.asp

    I'll try and answer your other questions as best I can, but keep in mind I am no expert by any means. If you take a closer look at my previous photos you will see that the filling bowl and the inlet fitting for the air are both located on the top of the tank. Both are equipped with ball shutoff valves. When I fill the tank with oil, I disconnect the air line and open the ball valve. This allows the oil to drain into the tank more efficiently, and with out the gurgling that would occur if the valve was closed.

    With regards to the burner assembly/furnace issues: Since you have used this furnace successfully in the past with propane, I'm going to assume the design is sound.(tuyere placement, plinth block, ect.) If I had to guess, I would say you are on the right track with the air volume in the furnace. Keep in mind that although your blower may be rated at a certain cfm, that is qualified by certain constants that are part of the standard cfm equation. One of these is backpressure, another is the size of the opening you are trying to force the air through. I won't bore you with the equation, mainly because I don't remember it, and I have to google it every time I need to work this kind of thing out. Basically, every blower has limits. When you try to force a large volume of air thru a small opening you encounter resistance. As the opening gets smaller the velocity increases, as does the temperature of the air. This is great for a oil burner because more velocity means better atomization of the oil in the furnace. But..... eventually the fan/blower reaches its full potential so to speak. This means that you can continue to decrease the opening, but the velocity remains the same. This is backpressure, you are essentially exceeding the limits of the blower. Yes the blower is rated at 105cfm, but at what size opening? Also keep in mind that the air needs to get in AND out. You may have a large blower inlet, but if the furnace is relatively sealed and the hole in the top of the furnace is not sized equal or greater to the inlet opening, your not going to be able to reach your full potential with the blower your using. In general I have found that bigger is always better with regards to blowers for oil fired systems. You need a lot of air inside the furnace to get the results you want. You'll notice that larger commercial furnaces (mifco) have two tuyeres entering the furnace just for this reason, even the propane/lp versions.They need two openings in order to get enough air into the furnace to support the amount of fuel they want to pump into it. Try adding another blower, just add a T to your current set up. Borrow a leaf blower from the neighbor, or add a few shop vacs. It doesn't have to be pretty, just get a ton more air into the furnace atmosphere and see what you get. Once you get everything dialed in you can clean it up a bit.

    Lastly, be really careful with your fuel line. I would recommend something that will not melt if it came in contact with hot metal. (it looked from your video that your fuel line was some type of plastic/poly, but I may by wrong) Ideally, this would never happen, but when your working with hot metal sometimes things do. I am not the safety police by any means, but trust me when I tell you that this is not a lesson you want to learn the hard way. Also consider a quick disconnect at the fuel tank for the fuel line with the female adapter attached to the tank. In the event of a problem, this would allow you to quickly disconnect the fuel source while it is under pressure, and remove it from the casting area quickly. I am sure you are a well qualified/experienced foundry person, please keep in mind these are only meant as suggestions, and not intended as criticism. My experience has taught me that it is better to plan for the worst when it comes to foundry work. If all goes well, no worries. If everything hits the fan, your prepared, your safe, and after everything cools down you can evaluate and take another crack at it. Just my two cents. Sorry for the long post.
    ...Dave...

  2. #12
    Senior Member Zapins's Avatar
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    Thank you for the links to the products you mentioned. I will go through them more thoroughly and make up a shopping/wish list tomorrow. As for the safety tips, I'm always glad to hear it, I don't know everything and hearing advice always helps me improve my foundry equipment and procedures. I'd rather lose some money and time than a limb or an eye especially when dealing with a pressurized diesel container.

    What kind of hose do you think would work better? I currently have a polyurethane tube with a shark bite quick connector at the bottom of the tank. There is a valve before it that use to shut off the diesel. I need to shorten the hose as well. It is too damn long and gets tangled in everything.

    I also want to add another valve before the pressure dial to stop gas flowing back into the compressor if it is turned off. I didn't think that one all the way through when making it but I saw denatured alcohol bubbling at the compressor connection when I was doing the test run with the compressor on the ground. That is why I raised it up onto the kiln in the video.

    What size blower do you think would work? I don't have any first hand experience on what size blower would work. Would a bouncy castle blower be about right? What kind of horse power rating should the blower have?

    While the oil burner didn't really work very well at all my new wax burnout furnace worked PERFECTLY. No flaws at all. I am extremely happy with it. http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/showth...d-Zapins/page2

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Zapins View Post
    Thank you for the links to the products you mentioned. I will go through them more thoroughly and make up a shopping/wish list tomorrow. As for the safety tips, I'm always glad to hear it, I don't know everything and hearing advice always helps me improve my foundry equipment and procedures. I'd rather lose some money and time than a limb or an eye especially when dealing with a pressurized diesel container.

    What kind of hose do you think would work better? I currently have a polyurethane tube with a shark bite quick connector at the bottom of the tank. There is a valve before it that use to shut off the diesel. I need to shorten the hose as well. It is too damn long and gets tangled in everything.

    I also want to add another valve before the pressure dial to stop gas flowing back into the compressor if it is turned off. I didn't think that one all the way through when making it but I saw denatured alcohol bubbling at the compressor connection when I was doing the test run with the compressor on the ground. That is why I raised it up onto the kiln in the video.

    What size blower do you think would work? I don't have any first hand experience on what size blower would work. Would a bouncy castle blower be about right? What kind of horse power rating should the blower have?

    While the oil burner didn't really work very well at all my new wax burnout furnace worked PERFECTLY. No flaws at all. I am extremely happy with it. http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/showth...d-Zapins/page2
    Zapins,
    For tubing I would recommend the product I mentioned in my earlier post (see below)

    https://www.lowes.com/pd/BrassCraft-...b-689f1a0a5c9c

    This is what I use. It is flexible, and the stainless stands up to heat and random metal/dross drips. If this product doesn't fit your setup, try black pipe or brake line anything metal to make your connection between the tank and the burner. For the quick disconnects, regular air fittings will work fine.

    For the blower, I would recommend the following. First seal up the opening around the burner itself where it enters the furnace. The air will take the path of least resistance, so a bigger blower won't help if the majority of the air is just being forced out the wrong way past the burner. Take a look at my burner assembly photo in the earlier post if I am not being clear. You want all the air from the blower to go into the furnace, nowhere else. Next before you invest in anything larger, add some additional air to the setup. Leave your current blower as is and use a shop vac or hair dryer, or leaf blower, or whatever you can borrow along with your current blower to increase the amount of air being forced into the furnace. If you get a satisfactory result, you can move on to buying a larger blower. If there is no change, we can leave the blower as is an look a little deeper. Hope this helps.
    ...Dave...

  4. #14
    Senior Member Zapins's Avatar
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    Oh I thought that was yellow plastic. I was a bit confused haha. So it is painted steel then?

    What is an air fitting? I've never heard of that before unless you mean the compression type fittings they use for gas stuff?

    I think you are right about sealing the end of the tube up. There was a decent amount of air coming out the back, but when I covered it with my hand it didn't seem to increase the amount going into the furnace. So it was probably just the blower maxed out fighting against the back pressure. I think sealing it up would make more of a difference with a larger blower. So I'll have to modify the burner tube so it just has 1 tube instead of 2 like it does now. That way it will be easy to get through a solid plate.

    I tried adding a hair drier to the open end as well as the blower and it didn't improve anything. I'm not sure if that is because of back pressure or what

    In your burner picture what is the red line on the bottom? Is that compressed air?



    What does the tip of your oil burner look like? or how does it come together inside the large burner tube right next to the furnace?

    Also, how did you manage to rig this entire setup? Is it rigidly welded into place? Or can you adjust the height and depth of the burner tube? Half the issue I think I'm having might be because there is a lot of slop in the position of the oil burner.

    The other half might be because I'm currently using a Delevan siphon burner. Piece of crap if you ask me. Haven't gotten anything but trouble from it.

    Sorry for the big load of questions. I feel like when I finally get a usable oil burner system working I'm going to look back on this 3 year Odyssey and smack myself on the forehead at how simple it was.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Zapins View Post
    Oh I thought that was yellow plastic. I was a bit confused haha. So it is painted steel then?

    What is an air fitting? I've never heard of that before unless you mean the compression type fittings they use for gas stuff?

    I think you are right about sealing the end of the tube up. There was a decent amount of air coming out the back, but when I covered it with my hand it didn't seem to increase the amount going into the furnace. So it was probably just the blower maxed out fighting against the back pressure. I think sealing it up would make more of a difference with a larger blower. So I'll have to modify the burner tube so it just has 1 tube instead of 2 like it does now. That way it will be easy to get through a solid plate.

    I tried adding a hair drier to the open end as well as the blower and it didn't improve anything. I'm not sure if that is because of back pressure or what

    In your burner picture what is the red line on the bottom? Is that compressed air?



    What does the tip of your oil burner look like? or how does it come together inside the large burner tube right next to the furnace?

    Also, how did you manage to rig this entire setup? Is it rigidly welded into place? Or can you adjust the height and depth of the burner tube? Half the issue I think I'm having might be because there is a lot of slop in the position of the oil burner.

    The other half might be because I'm currently using a Delevan siphon burner. Piece of crap if you ask me. Haven't gotten anything but trouble from it.

    Sorry for the big load of questions. I feel like when I finally get a usable oil burner system working I'm going to look back on this 3 year Odyssey and smack myself on the forehead at how simple it was.
    Zapins,
    The air fittings are just the quick disconnect fittings like you are using on your air compressor for your air hoses. You are correct, the red hose shown in the photo is the compressed air line for the burner assembly. This burner assembly shown can be used with or with out compressed air. The oil feeds into the stainless brake line via two small holes in the brake line. I can run the oil and allow it to simply drip feed into the furnace, or open the valve for the air and help push/atomize the oil a bit. Either way will work. When using the compressed air you get the added benefit of increasing the amount of oxygen into the furnace, which means more fuel and more heat. Inside the furnace the end of the brake line just ends, no tip, or flutes, or vanes, or any special features. The blower air is brought in through the 3" pvc pipe and blows air past the tip of the brake line into the furnace. Nothing is welded, everything can be slide out of the furnace. The brake line that feeds the oil into the furnace is just slide into a slightly larger hole in the iron plug that helps to center the line in the furnace tuyere. You should be able to move the burner assembly in and out of your furnace if possible. You are probably already familiar with the venturi effect that is created in the furnace as the air swirls up and out of the top. This creates a suction just like the suction created in your burner tip. By adjusting how far your burner tip sits back in your tuyere, you will see very different results. Play around with the depths and then mark the best position for future melts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, in case I wasn't clear, this is a waste oil set up. I am running waste motor oil through the yellow appliance gas line. Reading back through the post, you may have thought I was running gas to the burner in the photo.
    Last edited by Junkyard; 01-02-2017 at 01:42 AM.
    ...Dave...

  6. #16
    Zap, you need more air, no 2 shits about it. Your spray pattern looks brilliant spraying alcohol. One question I do have for you, How FAR up the burner tube is the tip of your nozzle from the inside face? Here is why I ask.... I had issues when I would make the switch from preheat diesel to motor oil. What I found was my nozzle was too far up the pipe. This was causing the spray to collect on the inside of the pipe instead of atomizing INSIDE the chamber where ya want it. If ya cant understand the measurement I'm asking you for, please see this thread.
    http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/showth...ighlight=kwiky

    btw... With my natural gas forge I run into the same issues with back pressure. Lots of volume from squirrel cage blowers, but they have no balls to push past any back pressure. Might be time to get another bouncy house blower for me too. I think 1 hp blowers should work well for our sizes and what we are trying to do.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member r4z0r7o3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junkyard View Post
    One of these is backpressure, another is the size of the opening you are trying to force the air through.
    I'm with junkyard, you're pushing way too much fuel for the amount of blower air. Dial your fuel-tank pressure doooooowwwwwwnnnn low and it will give you more fine control on the fuel needle-valve. Unless you can upgrade the blower, you'll be in the same position as me, fuel delivery is overshooting the burning air (and blower pressure).

    FWIW, I had trouble with my siphon-feed at first too. There's a trick to balancing the blower + siphon PSI + fuel pressure juuuuuust right. It's not too hard though, just keep trying and you'll get it. I'd suggest starting out at the low-end of it's capability and working up (instead of other way around). So, maybe 3-6 PSI in your fuel tank, medium-low needle opening, 3-5 psi to the siphon, then adjust the blower upwards until you get a good clean burn going.

    To go up from there, increase fuel pressure by 1-2 PSI, open needle just a little, then increase blower to regain clean burn.

    The point is to only be adjusting one thing at a time.

    Keep trying, you'll get the hang of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by zapins
    Would a bouncy castle blower be about right? What kind of horse power rating should the blower have?
    Forget about HP and power ratings on basically any consumer-level goods. Corporate marketing got their grubby mitts into the tables and now they just pick numbers that look good, there's no science behind them.

    That said, I've read plenty of posts from people using bouncy castle blowers and used electric leaf-blowers. With both, the preponderance of suggestions I received said it was far easier to employ a dump-gate to control the airflow instead of trying to control the electricity or block the intake.

    The easy way: Output of blower goes into a Tee fitting. The sideways opening of the fitting has a kind of gate that can be swung open/closed to adjust the amount of extra air that is dumped, vs goes into the furnace. In Gingery's crucible-furnace book, he describes using a screw as a hinge for the gate, such that the screw-head bears on a spring. The spring presses against the gate's face to hold it sealed against the Tee fitting opening's surface. Then you just slide it open/closed as needed to control the flow.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, things that are useful are simple."
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  8. #18
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    No need for a dump gate/valve/whatever.... I mimicked Scavenger's combustion air gate valve with my own home brew butterfly type. Just choke the flow. That's all you need to do. You also gain the benefit of lowering the load on the blower and saving on power.

    Fwiw: blocking the output or input doesn't matter. The end result is the same. I'd say blocking the intake is easier though.
    FLAME ON...!!!!

  9. #19
    I'm in the process of putting together a similar burner I'm using a Vane axial fan, they can deliver about 2.5" of static pressure were as a squirrel cage can only deliver about .5' static. The attached is the fan that I'm using, it should feed enough air to fire 4 or 5 gallons per hour if i wanted to go that far.
    http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-...tor-97762.html

    on the Delivan nozzles it is important that the oil be filtered I'm using a 20 micron combustion spin on filter on mine but a normal auto spin on would be good enough, the other thing most of the commercial waste oil burners have a electric heater block on the fuel line right in front of the nozzle to thin the oil, pressurizing the oil would help reduce the need to thin it but it won't atomize as well as if it is heated. the other thing is the nozzle should be located about 1/2" from the end of the burner outlet into the furnace, the oil cone plus a little air mixing room needs to be in the furnace space, it needs to reach combustion temperature before it hits anything, that is the reason for getting the furnace on its way up to temp before bringing on the oil. Oils ignition temperature is about 500F. Commercial burners use either a high Btu gas pilot or arc ignition on oil burners. The ignition source must provide enough heat to vaporize the oil and get it above the 500f. We have the advantage of the inside of the furnace having some heat mass that can sustain combustion. On mine i'm going to try starting it with gas down the compressed air line and then going over to air once I'm up to temp, I'm not sure i can get enough gas the the nozzle for this to work.

    I'm using an old 2.5 gallon paint pot for my tank and using a pan heater on the filter.

    Once i get to the point of firing I'll start another thread as i don't want to interfere with this one.

    Art B

  10. #20
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    If the oil is coming out in a stream and not atomizing, your burner won't act right. I had mine running today with the oil at 22psi, compressor air around 15psi and my vacuum cleaner dialed down to about 30%. I was firing my new furnace today so I was going for max heat. By running my settings high at the compressor and oil tank I can throttle things down using the control valves at the burner to find the right balance. I found that when my oil was squirting instead of atomizing I was just dousing the furnace with unburned oil and got black smoke as well as a visible cold spot. If I turned the oil volume down or had the atomization air up too high I would get white smoke.
    Different viscosities will require different settings I'm sure. I started today by siphoning diesel fuel out of a jug until the furnace was hot, then pulled the line out of the jug and attached it to the pressurized tank without shutting down the burner. With pressure suddenly behind the diesel fuel, it burned out of the top for about a minute until the oil finally displaced it in the line. I didn't bother trying to adjust it until the oil got there as I knew the cold thick oil (35F) would behave differently. The interior of the furnace got almost blinding hot and I sustained that for about an hour.

    Pete

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